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Here we go again with Israeli Agent Provocateurs launching bottle rockets into open fields in Israel just to try to get world sympathy for them to launch another campaign of murder against the Palestinians.
: Israeli Agent Provocateurs Launch Bottle Rockets From Gaza Into Israel - Newest Excuse For Cast Lead II?
Seeded on Tue Jan 3, 2012 9:08 AM EST
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Many people have soon forgotten that some 3 years ago, the criminal state of Israel launched a bloody and deadly campaign against the impoverished prison camp called Gaza, under the code name: Cast Lead. That brutal and unwarranted attack on an innocent civilian population caused the massacre of over 1400 civilians. After the operation, there was little condemnation of the criminal state of Israel, so basically they got away with murder then
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Now comes rumblings out of the region that Israel is about to conduct a new brutal and murderous campaign on the open air prison camp called Gaza. Just the other day, I came across the following article, from Al Arabiya News, at www.alarabiya.net, entitled: "Rockets Fired From Gaza Into Israel Causing No Damage: Army", and I said to myself...
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IDF Chief: Israel will fight in Gaza again if needed
Hamas tells Red Cross: Israel planning another war in Gaza'
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Many people have soon forgotten that some 3 years ago, the
criminal( sovereign )state of Israel launcheda bloody and deadly( effective) campaign against theimpoverished prison camp( terrorist controlled strip of land) called Gaza, under the code name: Cast Lead.
I fixed that for you.
Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British troops in Afghanistan, has repeatedly commented that, "during its operation in Gaza, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare." Furthermore, he points out that the steps taken in that conflict by the Israeli Defence Forces to avoid civilian deaths are shown by a study published by the United Nations to have resulted in, by far, the lowest ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare.
Colonel Richard Kemp, speaking before the United Nations http://youtu.be/NX6vyT8RzMo
Kemp explains that by UN estimates, the average ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide is 3:1 -- three civilians for every combatant killed. That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan. But in Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to have been 4:1. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia. In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one.
Since the 22-day Gaza operation, Israel has also been demonstrably fastidious in its efforts to protect civilian lives while targeting combatants. The Israel correspondent for Jane's Defence Weekly sites Israel's record this year, saying "the IDF killed 100 Gazans in 2011. Nine were civilians. That is a civilian-combatant ratio of nearly 1:10."
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Col Richards can say what he wants as a paid agent of IDF to support IDF. The facts stand clear that Israel comitted a masscare of women and children in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead
In what can be considered a sad paradox of history, an analysis of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) actions during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza shows that the IDF violated several of the Nuremberg Principles, as well as the principles of the Geneva Conventions.
The Nuremberg Principles are a set of guidelines established after World War II to try Nazi Party members. They were established to determine what constitutes a war crime. The Geneva Conventions consist of four treaties and three additional protocols that establish the standards in international law for humanitarian treatment of the victims of war.
According to Nuremberg Principle I, "Any person who commits an act which constitutes a crime under international law is responsible therefore and liable to punishment." As detailed in the "Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict," also known as the "Goldstone Report," several crimes against unarmed civilians were committed by the IDF during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza.
The UN Mission investigated 11 incidents in which the IDF launched direct attacks against civilians with lethal outcome. The facts in all except one case, states the Mission, indicate no justifiable military objective. According to the report, "From the facts ascertained in all the above cases, the Mission finds that the conduct of the Israeli armed forces constitutes grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in respect of willful killings and willfully causing great suffering to protected persons and, as such, give rise to individual criminal responsibility. It also finds that the direct targeting and arbitrary killing of Palestinian civilians is a violation of the right to life."
Both Israeli government and military officials are responsible for the IDF actions during Operation Cast Lead. As Nuremberg Principle III states, "The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible government official does not relive him from responsibility under international law."
It has been argued that those that were following orders are not guilty of crimes, and the responsibility for those crimes falls on the superior officers. However, Nuremberg Principle IV states that, "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
Nuremberg Principle VI establishes three kinds of crimes punishable as crimes under international law: crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity. Among crimes against peace are those crimes "involving planning, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances."
Although the Government of Israel has the duty to defend its citizens, it is clear that Operation Cast Lead was a war of aggression against Gazans, out of any reasonable proportion and aimed at inflicting massive damage on Gaza's civilian population. According to a study carried out by B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization, 1,387 Gazans were killed during operation Cast Lead, a figure that includes 773 civilians and 330 combatants.
Among the war crimes established by Nuremberg Principle VI are the, "...plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity." The UN Mission investigated several incidents involving the destruction of industrial infrastructure, food production, water installations, sewage treatment plants and housing. Among the installations destroyed by the IDF was the el-Bader flour mill, the only operating flour mill in Gaza.
As stated in the UN report, "...the Mission finds that there has been a violation of the grave breaches provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Unlawful and wanton destruction which is not justified by military necessity amounts to a war crime. The Mission also finds that the destruction of the mill was carried out to deny sustenance to the civilian population, which is a violation of customary international law and may constitute a war crime. The strike on the flour mill furthermore constitutes a violation of the right to adequate food and means of subsistence."
The UN Mission also investigated four incidents in which the IDF coerced Palestinian civilian men at gunpoint to take part in house search operations. The men, blindfolded and handcuffed, were forced to enter houses suspected of having combatants, ahead of the Israeli soldiers. "From the facts available to it, the Mission is of the view that some of the actions of the Government of Israel might justify a competent court finding that crimes against humanity have been committed," states the report.
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Col Richards can say what he wants as a paid agent of IDF to support IDF
Your statement is unsupported by fact or reality.
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If a person supports blindly Israel, israeli zionists and israeli occupation and war on Gaza without any reservation then that says something special about him. Haven't we seen that from the blind Israel supporters in US congress who get paid for election campaigns by Israeli supported lobbies. Likes of Kemp who are sold out for blindly supporting a cause without any reservations can be recognized very clearly.
UK - Col. Richard Kemp Defends Zionism at "We Believe in Israel" Conference
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There is never any justification for blindly following anything and certainly not for posting obvious trash just because it is aligned with your "position" on something.
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I fixed that for you.
No you didn't; all you did was edit the descriptions so that Israel comes off looking better. It's called BS and is all to typical of Israel's supporters to make such diversionary efforts
blindly following anything and certainly not for posting obvious trash just because it is aligned with your "position" on something.
the irony in your statement... Does this mean you'll stop blindly believing Israel's revised "history" and posting their propagandized "facts"???
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Simple question : would killing more people like Israel does on a regular basis with air bombings and gunfire help the peace prococess ? Not at all is the answer.
Israelis know this fact but are in denial. For each person they kill the bar of their injustice rises higher with more hate produced by their actions than a possibility of negotiated settlement. I think there are people in Israeli governmrnt who think that only the use of high tech military equipment will lead to security and peace which has been proven to be a false assumption time and again.
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Your statement is unsupported by fact or reality.
Are you saying the IDF Col. is not paid by the IDF? Clearly it is your statement that is unsupported by fact or reality.
Thanks for that very Good rebuttal to kpr and denny
Thanks, and here's something of note. See not all Israelis are evil, some do have a conscience and as such have chosen to stop committing terrorism against the Palestinians. For their efforts they have since been labeled traitors and thrown out of the IAF.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/dec/03/israel
For two months, a rebel group of Israeli Black Hawk helicopter and F-16 fighter pilots has been denounced as traitors for saying they will no longer bomb Palestinian cities.
Until now they have maintained a resolute silence on their motives, preferring to limit their criticism of Ariel Sharon's war to a letter signed by 27 reserve and active duty pilots refusing to carry out what they described as illegal orders, and denouncing the occupation as eating at the moral fabric of Israel.
Now, having been thrown out of the air force, they are talking publicly about what brought members of the most revered branch of the Israeli military to make an unprecedented challenge to the handling of the conflict with the Palestinians.
"I served more than seven years as a pilot," said Captain Alon R, who, like all the younger pilots, hopes to return to combat flying and so declines to use his full name in order to retain his security clearance. "In the beginning, we were pilots who believed our country would do all it could to achieve peace. We believed in the purity of our arms and that we did all we could to prevent unnecessary loss of life.
"Somewhere in the last few years it became harder and harder to believe that is the case."
The line was crossed for most of the pilots with the dropping of the one-tonne bomb last year on the home of a Hamas military leader, Salah Shehade, killing him and 14 of his family, mostly children.
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great comment. What I get is that Israeli extremists even marginalize and detest those Israelis who stand up for justice. Thanks for bringing this up.
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Thanks for bringing this up.
You're welcome
What I get is that Israeli extremists even marginalize and detest those Israelis who stand up for justice.
Using a One Ton bomb in a densely populated area in Gaza, the targeted assassination of a Hamas Leader, had triggered massive backlash against Israel's policy of Political assassination (a form of terrorism). Not only had 9 children been killed, but another 100 bystanders were injured.
27 IAF pilots that refused to bomb civilians were deemed traitors. That says a lot about Israel's leaders.
Israeli officials don't travel much now, because there exists the real possibility of arrest and trial for crimes against humanity.
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3665619,00.html
On Thursday, a Spanish court granted a petition by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, asking that six Israeli security officials and former Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer be charged with alleged "crimes against humanity" for their involvement in the 2002 assassination of Hamas operative Salah Shehade.
Fourteen civilians were killed in the incident and about 100 more were injured.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8290554.stm
Pro-Palestinian groups in Britain want Mr Yaalon to face trial over the 2002 killing of a Gaza militant, in which 14 others also died.
Britain has adopted the legal principle of "universal jurisdiction", under which domestic courts in countries around the world can try war crimes suspects, even if the crime took place outside the country and the suspect is not a citizen.
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Using a One Ton bomb in a densely populated area in Gaza, the targeted assassination of a Hamas Leader, had triggered massive backlash against Israel's policy of Political assassination (a form of terrorism). Not only had 9 children been killed, but another 100 bystanders were injured.
That is pathetic and inhuman indeed by low standards of military professionalism in Israeli armed forces.
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That is pathetic and inhuman indeed by low standards of military professionalism in Israeli armed forces.
Indeed. Notice how little attention the Israeli pilots got? Most have never even heard that after the incident, the use of a one-ton bomb in a densely populated are, 27 IAF pilots refused to bomb civilians ever again and were thus deemed traitors and thrown out of the IAF. It's sick and shameful and has rightfully sparked numerous groups in Israel now opposed to the Zionist warmongering.
The problem are Extremists and the mentality that perpetuates itself. Israel's government is as much to blame as Hamas, if not more so.
An interesting parallel is that if you were to ask the average American if they think the Irish resistance to British occupation was terrorism, they would likely say No. The IRA targeted Military, Law enforcement and government officials; the very system of their occupation. Yes, civilians died; Yes, they did commit acts of terrorism in some cases; Yes, the British did too.
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I do think that your reading of the American public may be accurate on the IRA/British struggle, but on the ground both parties committed horrible atrocities. Once the IRA got involved, if we start then, it was bad from both sides.
The British had a much longer period during which it committed actual genocide--but ths was way before the IRA.
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oops... missed adding this to the comment above.
I've clipped this around a bit. The foreseeable conflicts in the Middle East--another invasion of Gaza and an attack on Iran--are truly unfathomable crimes if they occur.
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kpr37, thanks for the great straqtegy of "substitution" which your "editing" of a comment in the article encouraged in a thread in a seed of mine. The substitution works so well it proves that the Palestinians are living in an apartheid condition.
See comment 2.1 here.
Thanks, kpr37, I never would have thought of this powerful argument on my own.
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but on the ground both parties committed horrible atrocities.
Yes, I even said that in the last sentence.
"Yes, civilians died; Yes, they did commit acts of terrorism in some cases; Yes, the British did too."
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Headline marked as inaccurate, @!$%#ing bull@!$%#. would the respected blogger be happier if the rockets were more accurate, or that Iron-Dome wouldn't exist, for that matter?
This kind of nonsense isn't fit for NV, ramikay (or whatever it used to be before that). best save face, delete it all together.
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do you deny what IDF cheif and others in Israeli government have been saying over the last week or so hinting another Cast Lead.
Israeli general hints at another Gaza campaign
"We are preparing and in fact are ready for another campaign, which will be varied and different, to renew our deterrence,
The intention is a shorter operation that employs significantly more firepower than Cast Lead did.
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Let him leave this up. It says more about his integrity as a NV contributor than it says about Israel.
Happy to link to it when questions of his credibility come up. When we need to sort those who care about the truth from those who will knowingly post the absurdest rantings of a bigoted blogger in support of their own bigoted agenda ...
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so hinting another Cast Lead.
There is no hinting of anything. Israel, IDF are always hoping for the best, preparing for the worst. hardly breaking news stuff, is it?
Whether or not another operation would be needed is entirely up to Islamic-Jihad, other terror groups in Gaza.
Point well taken, Dennis.
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How many others seed from Blogs? Do Israel's supporters seed from Blogs? Have Israel's supporters seed from Blogs?
The title of this seed matches the title of the sourced blog, so there is violation.
Let him leave this up. It says more about his integrity as a NV contributor than it says about Israel.
Israel's agents have been caught in their False Flag attempts numerous times. Keep denying it Dennis and it will show more about you as a NV contributor than anything else.
Lavon Affair - Jewish terrorists planted bombs in Egypt targeting locations owned by American businessmen and frequented by foreigners (US and UK citizens). The Jewish terrorists not only planted bombs targeting civilians but they also planted evidence to suggest Islamic extremists were responsible. 50 years later Israel admits to it and then honors the surviving Jewish terrorists recruited as agents-provocateur in what became one of the worst intelligence bungles in Israel's history.
Ynet even says they were agents-provocateur...
King David Hotel Bombing - Terrorist Jews targeted a hotel which was storing evidence collected by the British during a raid of the Jewish Agency. The evidence connected the Jewish Agency to violent Jewish terrorist groups. In the plan, Irgun men, disguised as Arabs, except for Gideon, the leader, who would be dressed as one of the hotel's distinctive Sudanese waiters, would enter the building through a basement service entrance carrying the explosives concealed in milk cans. The cans were to be placed by the main columns supporting the wing where the majority of the offices used by the British authorities were located. The columns were in a basement nightclub known as the Régence
Irgun terrorists disguised as Arabs...
Mexican Parliament Bombing (failed attempt) - In a mind-blowing development, La Voz de Aztlan has learned that Mexican Army General Rafael Marcial Macedo de la Concha (left) who heads the Procuraduría General de la República (Mexican Department of Justice) has released the retired Israeli Defense Forces colonel and presumed MOSSAD agent Salvador Guersson Smecke and Israeli illegal immigrant Saur Ben Zvi after both had penetrated the security of the Mexican Congress and were in possession of guns, hand grenades and explosives.
Without going on with these False Flag terrorism committed by Jewish agents-provocateur. There is clearly a precedent for such terrorism, so rockets being used by Israelis to justify Cast Lead II is not so unbelievable.
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so there is violation.
correction: so there is no violation.
Also, I hit the block "quote" button for the 3 examples I gave when I meant to hit the italic button. Sorry, but I couldn't edit my comment in time. Only the third example was a direct quote; the others were paraphrased by me.
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Wonderful posts.
There is clearly a precedent for such terrorism, so rockets being used by Israelis to justify Cast Lead II is not so unbelievable.
The Zionist terrorist entity's tactics are well known. The Perpetual victimhood needs to be fed if they are to continue their extortion of billions of dollars from the USA and Europe. The Genocidal Israelis want more. More blood, more money, more land and more diversion for their external efforts in the USA and abroad.
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IDF and Dennis, I thought you'd caught the seeder in a CoH violation of an inaccurate headline.
Obviously you didn't. The headline comes right from the article he seeded:
Israeli Agent Provocateurs Launch Bottle Rockets From Gaza Into Israel - Newest Excuse For Cast Lead II?
Many people have soon forgotten that some 3 years ago, the criminal state of Israel launched a bloody and deadly campaign against the impoverished prison camp called Gaza, under the code name: Cast Lead. That brutal and unwarranted attack on an innocent civilian population caused the massacre of over 1400 civilians.
I don't think that counts as a violation. There's no rule against seeding articles/comments from blogs.
As for referring to the civilian casualties, that bloody invasion some 3 years ago was truly a tragedy. Out of the 1400 civilians killed, over 300 were children.
Where's the violation? Where's even the exaggeration in what ramikay has written or done as a viner? (Is there something I've missed that you two know? If there are problems in the article, that's not the seeder's fault, is it?)
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The headline comes right from the article he seeded:
Yep. and it's still complete, utter bull@!$%#. I agree with Dennis, though. better to leave these articles as is, more than anything they show the true colors of their seeders, supporters who agree with such nonsense.
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IDF you are quick to deny and throw some utter bull@!$%# to deny the facts with no backing.
Here is the truth that you really deny
So when you hear pro-Israeli types claim "Hamas rocket attacks", hit them up for specifics; ask that person how many Israelis have died as a result of those unguided projectiles that are extremely primitive in a world of modern weapons possessed by Israel. The highest number you will find is 28. Other estimates place the number of Israeli dead at 14, in all time, from rocket attacks.
However this is the excuse used to constantly demonize the Palestinian people, who are endlessly oppressed and live in a world compromised by Israeli policy that is not consistent with Human Rights and in fact, specifically violates the UN Human Rights Council's Declaration of Human Rights which guarantees many things Israel denies.
While the Occupation is business as usual for Israel, there should be no business with Israel.
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to deny the facts with no backing.
You're basically claiming Israelis are lobbing rockets at themselves, and then you have the nerve to post the above? oh dear, ramikay (or should I say, Mr re-reg?), how very rich of you. if it weren't so sad, I'd laugh. I'll leave you to it, this kind of drivel deserves no more attention.
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You're basically claiming Israelis are lobbing rockets at themselves,
A history of false flag attacks do lend credibility to that theory.
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Exactly false flags - and there are some experts in Israel doing specifically that to divert attention from peace process and internal Israeli issues.
More Questions
FALSE FLAGS OVER GAZA? (See Map Inside for the following)
1. Rafah Crossing to Egypt from Gaza is closed….
2. Border from Egypt to Israel is heavily guarded….
HOW DID THE ‘TERRORISTS’ GET INTO EGYPT AND THEN CROSS INTO ISRAEL? (or didn’t they?)
*
Yes Virginia, it looks like Israel has once again hoisted a false flag over Gaza to justify bombing them AGAIN, killing 7 people…
Despite Hamas’ claim that they had nothing to do with the ‘attack’, which BTW did not get any press coverage in Israel.
*
Again, we are given only Israel’s ‘side’ on the situation, a side that has proven time and time again to be unreliable.
*
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FALSE FLAGS OVER GAZA? (See Map Inside for the following)
1. Rafah Crossing to Egypt from Gaza is closed….
2. Border from Egypt to Israel is heavily guarded….
HOW DID THE ‘TERRORISTS’ GET INTO EGYPT AND THEN CROSS INTO ISRAEL? (or didn’t they?)
*
Yes Virginia, it looks like Israel has once again hoisted a false flag over Gaza to justify bombing them AGAIN, killing 7 people…
Despite Hamas’ claim that they had nothing to do with the ‘attack’, which BTW did not get any press coverage in Israel.
*
Again, we are given only Israel’s ‘side’ on the situation, a side that has proven time and time again to be unreliable.
What a load of cr@p! Rafah is closed so there is no way anybody got out of Gaza... except for the smuggling tunnels that EVERYBODY knows about. The border is heavily gaurded so there is no way they could have crossed over... except for the long stretches of the border that were guarded by a fence. Hamas said they didn't do it... yeah, what a noble, honest group that Hamas is...
The belief that rockets attacks from Gaza are ok because they harldy ever kill anybody used to be the most pathetic thing that I'd ever heard of until some moron came up with the "Israel is doing it to themselves" line.
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A history of false flag attacks do lend credibility to that theory.
What theory does the well documented history of Hamas lauching rockets support?
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What theory does the well documented history of Hamas lauching rockets support?
The list would be long. Off the top of my head and in it's broadest terms the rockets from Gaza into Israel conventionally support the "bad Arab" or "bad Muslim" theory. The rockets from Gaza are typically used to advance the theory that "bad" Arab/Muslims are "bloodthristy", "primitive", "hateful", and innately violent.
To advance these theories heads of state are guided, on official Israeli tours, to view piles of twisted metal and reflect on the constant persecution under which Israeli civilians must suffer. The rocket fire is used to build the power and threat of the enemy and to forget the asymmetry.
More?
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So your view is that the rockets fired from Gaza are a propaganda tool of Israel?
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Is the rocket fire used in Israeli propaganda? Sure it is. You don't think so?
Actually I think the invention of Gaza as an open air prison is a demonstration project for Israeli propaganda.
Outside of the propaganda uses I think the rocket fire is a pathetic shout of frustrated protest against the policies used against them there.
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I completely agree that the rocket fire is a great propaganda tool for Israel. I just don't think that because they fail in their attempts to kill people that it is ok. I also think it is ridiculous to insinuate that the rocket fire is Israel's doing or somehow Israel's fault. Hamas is pretty descriptive about what they do. Other than that, I think the use of phrases like "assymetry" and "open air prison" are commical.
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Whether launched by Israelis or Palestinians I don't see anyone here saying that rocket fire is OK. You completely agree that the rocket fire serves Israel's propaganda so it's not such a stretch to imagine that Israel might (even if unintentionally) encourage or provoke fire to net the propaganda benefits. A cost benefit analysis might show those benefits outweigh the risk posed by such fire eh?
What's comical about the use of asymmetry in referring to a military comparison between Hamas and Israel? All things considered you suppose Hamas's military might is pretty much similar to that of Israel?
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It is a stretch to assume that Hamas needs any provocation to launch rockets. Obviously Hamas is not interested in cost benefit analysis or they would have realized long ago that the launches server Israel's interest more than their own.
Those terms are commical for a few reasons. Assymetry makes me laugh because it is so pointless. Everyone know that Israel's army is far superior to Hamas in every concievable way, including Hamas. Yet they still launch their rockets knowing that Israel will respond (because they have to) and kill people in Gaza. They then use this action as their primary propaganda tool leading to legions of people running around repeating phrases like "assymetry" and "open air prision." Just like Hamas wants them to.
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Well I only used the term to make a point about how, in Israeli propaganda, the military threat posed by Hamas is exaggerated. The propaganda advancing an ever greater need for Israeli military might based on a symmetry between them is preposterous. Yet, that's what happens.
edit - btw - if the launches have greater benefit to Israel than Gaza then why not consider the theory that Israel might undertake the launches itself?
- 5 votes
I have never heard, seen or read anything indicating that Israel's military advancements are based upon any kind of symmetry between Hamas and the IDF. Israel's military is advancing based upon the necessity to counter terrorist attacks from Iran's lackeys and other larger threats, real or perceived. I challenge you to provide one piece of information where Israel has ever said anything about Hamas being close to the level of power as the IDF.
The reason I won't consider that Israel is launching the rockets is the fact that Hamas readlily admits thaty they launch them. Seems obvious.
- 2 votes
yeesh, symmetry is implied (not stated) by the exaggeration of threat posed by rocket fire. The recently installed short range missile system is an example of Israel cranking up the military amperage.
I believe it is within Israel's power to significantly change the basis upon which it receives real or perceived threats. Instead of recognizing and addressing the political goals of those resisting Israel's military occupation Israel turns up the military heat - the punishment & abuse. I understand Israel's response is that recognition might undermine or deligitimize some of it's own goals. Some political goals need to be reconsidered or compromised for the greater good.
- 8 votes
The Iron Dome batteries that you are referring to are there to intercept incoming rockets not crank up the amps. They are a defensive measure. I find your comment about the threat posed by rocket fire to be a little foolish. Are you insinuating that Israel should sit with their hands folded in their laps because the rockets are mostly ineffective?
I believe it is with Hamas' power to significantly change the reality in which it puts its people. Instead of swearing to kill everybody in Israel and launching rockets, they could not launch rockets and join the rest of the world in the 21st century. Deal with the situation as it is, in the real world, and choose to move forward instead of being stuck in reverse. As long as they choose this path, Israel has the right and obligation to respond militarily.
- 3 votes
yeah, the Iron Dome is the item I was thinking of as an addition to Israel's military capability, a military advancement, specifically based on military threat from Gaza. You said "I have never heard, seen or read anything indicating that Israel's military advancements are based upon any kind of symmetry between Hamas and the IDF". Since Israel advanced their military based on a threat from Gaza that decision indicates Israel wanted greater force, parity, a "counter" to demonstrated force from Gaza. Without Iron Dome advantage Gaza? Of course it's nonsense but it's Israel's game.
Hm? Think of all the years of engineering, the brokering to take it from design plan to model and finally to the "battlefield". It's a case in point of Israel using it's resources to increase it's military (offensive or defensive) on the basis of real or perceived threats out of Gaza. Like Hamas has got 'em by the short hairs and there was no alternative but to bring in more fire power?
- 8 votes
Wow. I thought before that it was an absent minded thought but you apparently do honestly believe that the rockets pose no threat. How utterly ridiculous. You are aware that people have died in the rocket attacks aren't you? Are you aware that the Iron Dome has intercepted rockets that were fired from Gaza? I'm not sure what you are trying to prove by hammering at this point. Do you see it as a bad thing that Israel is trying to protect people by designing a system to intercept rockets fired by a hostile force???
Since Israel advanced their military based on a threat from Gaza that decision indicates Israel wanted greater force, parity, a "counter" to demonstrated force from Gaza. Without Iron Dome advantage Gaza? Of course it's nonsense but it's Israel's game.
I'm not even sure how to repsond to something so ridiculous. This has absolutely nothing to do with arms build up or symmetry. It protection. Nonsense? Israel's game? What rubbish.
- 2 votes
... you apparently do honestly believe ...
Goes to show how inept your mind reading skills are. I'm happy to engage in an honest exchange of ideas - not so much a hyperbolic race to disgrace opposition.
- 6 votes
Plesae explain how a system designed solely to intercept missiles and save lives is an unacceptable arms build up and a nonsensical game. I apologize for my tone. I am quite enjoying this conversations but I am disturbed by this point.
- 2 votes
That was not my point ed.
Thanks for now. I've got an appointment (offline). bbl
- 7 votes
Rockets have killed only 28 Israelis in the past 10 years. More die in the average Israeli bombing of Gaza than the whole of all rocket attacks. Get some perspective ed!
- 8 votes
Your perspective has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.
But since you interjected, do you think the lack of effectiveness makes the rockets ok?
- 3 votes
Your perspective has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.
Neither does yours. Or has the idea of an open forum escaped your grasp again?
But since you interjected, do you think the lack of effectiveness makes the rockets ok?
More acceptable and more justified than Israel's terrorism that has killed 125x more civilians.
Nice to see you are only interested in talking about one side of the argument. Care to comment on Israel's terrorism?
Even IAF pilots have spoken out against Israel for deliberately targeting civilians, but I guess you want to keep the focus on ineffective rockets
http://www.haaretz.com/news/mofaz-iaf-pilots-letter-of-refusal-benefits-terror-groups-1.101072
The letter of refusal, signed by 27 active, reserve and retired pilots, declared their unwillingness to carry out operations in population centers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
"We, both veteran and active pilots, who have served and who still serve the State of Israel, are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral orders to attack, of the type Israel carries out in the territories," the letter states.
"We, for whom the IDF and the Air Force are an integral part of our being, refuse to continue to hit innocent civilians... The continued occupation is critically harming the country's security," and moral fiber, it added.
- 5 votes
Neither does yours. Or has the idea of an open forum escaped your grasp again?
I'm not even sure what you mean. Meloney and I were having a conversation and you decided to troll in with one of your grandiose remarks that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. As usual. I already know what you think so I shouldn't have asked. But here's what I really think. If the morons that run Hamas shoot a rocket into Israel and people get killed by the response, then it is on Hamas. If Israel shoots a random rocket into Gaza and people get killed by the response, then it is on Israel. But I know. " The whole of Israel is a trespass on Palestine by the terrorist Zionist entity... blah blah blah .... yadda yadda yadda." So the rockets are ok but responding to them is not. I get it.
- 2 votes
Is it not strange to everyone that these rocket attacks never seem to hit any targets or kill anyone?
Not really; incompetence is a hallmark of the Palestinians.
This is a campaign of mass genocide to exterminate the 1.5 million Palestinians trapped in Gaza.
LOL! If Israel really wanted to exterminate the Palis in Gaza, there are much easier ways to do it, with no risk to the soldiers of the IDF: shut off the power, the water, and the tons of goods which cross the border from Israel every day.
- 8 votes
#3 - Tue Jan 3, 2012 10:59 AM ESTIs it not strange to everyone that these rocket attacks never seem to hit any targets or kill anyone?
That is a LIE!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries,[1][2] as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.[3]
The weapons, often generically referred to as Qassams, were initially crude and short-range, mainly affecting the Israeli city of Sderot and other communities bordering the Gaza Strip. However, in 2006 more sophisticated rockets began to be deployed, reaching the larger coastal city of Ashkelon, and by early 2009 major cities Ashdod and Beersheba had been hit by Katyusha and Grad rockets.
Attacks have been carried out by all Palestinian armed groups,[4] and, prior to the 2008–2009 Gaza War, were consistently supported by most Palestinians,[5][6][7][8] although the stated goals have been mixed. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
- 8 votes
over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries
Thank you for making that point, RTA; it both contradicts the assertion in the seed that the rockets never kill anyone and supports my contention that the Palis are fundamentally incompetent (except when it comes to PR - they're pretty good at that).
- 5 votes
Also to be considered..
1. The psychological trauma caused by the attacks (growing up in NYC during the cold war and having air raid drills where you had to go under your seat was quite tramatic)
2. One judges the potential harm that a rocket can cause. Let me give you an example. You are my neighbor and you keep shooting at my house ( you are a bad aim and keep missing) I on the other hand are a good aim. Guess what is going to happen and yet you will try to blame me!
- 8 votes
'Israel initiated (GAZA) tension to distract from protests'
“Israel has been witnessing real unrest and weekly demonstrations calling for social justice,” he was quoted as saying. “These protests could have grown had it not been for the escalation, which diverted attention from the events. Since then, the demonstrations have stopped.”
- 9 votes
Oh! Come one. Stop the BS.
The protests in Israel are beautiful - exactly how a democracy with the freedom to protest should operate.
I find your comment inhuman vis a vis the Hamas charter.
- 9 votes
Just look at these statistics that tell the real picture of who has been really killing who
Israelis and Palestinians Killed in the Current Violence
At least 6,537 Palestinians and 1,092 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.
American news reports repeatedly describe Israeli military attacks against the Palestinian population as “retaliation.” However, when one looks into the chronology of death in this conflict, the reality turns out to be quite different.
Causes of Deaths of Israeli Soldiers
2005Committed Suicide
30Illness
14Accidents
26Terror Incidents
6Source: Israeli newspaper Ma’ariv, Oct. 10, 2005, p. 6.
Note: The paper also reported that since 1992, 459 Israeli soldiers have committed suicide.
- 9 votes
Comment collapsed by the communitytalking about Op Cast Lead - here are some facts
Israel lost 10 soldiers while three civilians were also killed by Hamas rockets. The militant Islamic group remains defiant, saying it will not bow to Israel's demands that it refrain from rearming. Abu Ubaida, a spokesman for the movement's military wing told reporters on Monday the group would restart its attacks on Israel if Israeli troops do not pull out quickly. Israel continued the pullout of its troops and tanks from the Gaza Strip. In their wake, what Palestinian officials estimate is $1.9 billion worth of material damage.
Israeli forces killed more than 1,300 Palestinians, many of them women and children. They also injured 7,000 civilians, while destroying over 4,000 houses and much of Gaza's infrastructure and buildings.
The king of Saudi Arabia has pledged $1 billion in reconstruction aid. Residents of Gaza sifted through the rubble of entire city blocks leveled during the 22-day campaign. Some expressed anger and disappointment at Hamas, which they said had failed to defend them.
HRW documented allegations in seven cases that Israeli soldiers shot and killed 11 Palestinian civilians, including five women and four children, who were in groups waving white flags to convey their civilian status
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/operation-cast-lead.htm
- 6 votes
#3.7 art - are you content now to see the facts in my response 3.8 which exposes the reality of Israeli attacks on the territory of Gaza. I hope you will at least sympathize with the killing of women and children by Israel. Otherwise it simply shows that you simply lack those human feelings.
- 7 votes
So what happened to all the B$ artiea you have been trying to push as an agenda of victimizer and victim at the same time.
- 7 votes
The protests in Israel are beautiful - exactly how a democracy with the freedom to protest should operate.
Didn't the IDF shoot the unarmed Arab protesters? Seems its exactly how an Apartheid regime acts if the same "crime" of protesting is punished differently depending on the offenders race/creed?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/05/us-palestinians-israel-idUSTRE7541PF20110605
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Local-News/2011/May-17/Condemnation-mounts-after-Israels-shooting-of-unarmed-demonstrators.ashx#axzz1iTQj0nmi
- 9 votes
"Is that all!"
What a @!$%#ing despicable thing to say. Many of them were innocent children, 1472 children to be exact. You should be ashamed of yourself. The death of even one innocent on either side is a tragedy. You deserve a suspension for that grave dancing crap.
"I hope you will at least sympathize with the killing of women and children"
I highly doubt it. I wonder Artie, were you this gleeful over the deaths of innocent men, women, and children when Baruch Goldstein open fired on them?
- 11 votes
Many of them were innocent children, 1472 children to be exact. You should be ashamed of yourself. The death of even one innocent on either side is a tragedy. You deserve a suspension for that grave dancing crap.
My God!
- 9 votes
Typical BS so often seen in Artie's comments. Notice how he never contributes with a real post, but just pops in to troll around with such offensive comments?
- 9 votes
The seed and the Article by nts are very misleading and seem to be more of subjective and speculative statements of their own opinion.I am not denying their right toi do so, however this is far from factual news reporting.
- 4 votes
#5 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 5:52 PM ESTSo when you hear pro-Israeli types claim "Hamas rocket attacks", hit them up for specifics; ask that person how many Israelis have died as a result of those unguided projectiles that are extremely primitive in a world of modern weapons possessed by Israel. The highest number you will find is 28. Other estimates place the number of Israeli dead at 14, in all time, from rocket attacks.
However this is the excuse used to constantly demonize the Palestinian people, who are endlessly oppressed and live in a world compromised by Israeli policy that is not consistent with Human Rights and in fact, specifically violates the UN Human Rights Council's Declaration of Human Rights which guarantees many things Israel denies.
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/august302011/occupied-palestine.php
- 6 votes
It then behooves me as to why they would continue to launch the rockets as it seems to be a a provocative action by them and the consequences are far reaching.Apparently they follow the saying , "stupid is as stupid does"
- 1 vote
It then behooves me as to why they would continue to bomb densely populated parts of Gaza as it seems to be a a provocative action by them and the consequences are far reaching.Apparently they follow the saying , "stupid is as stupid does".
Your vague and hollow posts can be parroted back at ya.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/mofaz-iaf-pilots-letter-of-refusal-benefits-terror-groups-1.101072
The letter of refusal, signed by 27 active, reserve and retired pilots, declared their unwillingness to carry out operations in population centers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
"We, both veteran and active pilots, who have served and who still serve the State of Israel, are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral orders to attack, of the type Israel carries out in the territories," the letter states.
"We, for whom the IDF and the Air Force are an integral part of our being, refuse to continue to hit innocent civilians... The continued occupation is critically harming the country's security," and moral fiber, it added.
Maybe the Israeli government should stop calling their own pilots "a bunch a traitors" for refusing to bomb anymore Palestinian civilians. But hey, don't take my word for it!
- 5 votes
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